The modern conception of how time unfolds leaves us trapped in a chronological sequence with no return to the past; but is it true that “you can’t go back”? In the second part of their conversation, Matthew and Ryan discuss how the past can erupt into the present; why cultivating these temporal possibilities must be an ecumenical project; the way images reveal timeless truths that underlie our visible surroundings; and how the ideas of thinkers like Chesterton can converse with, and be informed by, ancient Indigenous mythology.


  • Although modernism views the past through the lens of strict chronology, Thomas Pfau argues that the past can erupt or “inbreak” into the present, particularly through images

  • Art history is “a discipline that puts one in touch, intimately and consistently, with this inbreaking of the image”

  • Although the “blame” for modernism continues to shift over time, ultimately it can’t be pinned on any one person or tradition; the blame is shared, and the solution must be also

  • Chesterton is a fitting voice to bring into the conversation on Indigenous issues because he is “famously for the underdog” 

  • “The last thing I want to do is ape G.K. Chesterton; we don't need another one of those guys. We need someone updating his concerns”

  • “People who care about Chesterton and think that any time you talk about Indians, that you're going to be PC—why don't I use that as a gateway point? That's the thing. It's intended to be a hospitable opening to people who might not pay attention to [Indigenous issues] otherwise”

  • Rather than critical race theory, his book uses the lens of Indigenous mythology to look at the history of racism in this country

  • Images can allow the inbreaking of the invisible reality that underlies the visible; what is required is “reverence, wonder, and patience” and a present, attentive gaze

  • The icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help/Our Lady of the Passion was written as a lament against the violence of Roman Catholic crusaders against the Orthodox Christians of Cyprus 

  • Pope Pius IX promulgated devotion to Our Lady of Perpetual Help as he was losing the Papal States, while unconscious of the history of loss behind the icon

  • Each territory in America needs to be assessed individually: some land was stolen from the Indigenous tribes who lived there, while some was legitimately sold, if under bad conditions

  • In 1980, the Supreme Court determined that the Black Hills were stolen from the Lakota and ordered that they receive payment; they refused payment, saying they wanted the land back, and the money has been accruing interest since

  • Although the mountain where Black Elk had a vision of Christ was named Harney Peak after the man who massacred the Lakota, it has been renamed Black Elk Peak

  • We are living in a time when the ancient history of the Americas is being rediscovered and brought back to life; the Christian faith helps us know what role we play in that awakening